Neuro-affirming practices to support children’s peer relationships

Speaker: Sara Richardson, Be You National Manager, Early Childhood Australia
Guest Speaker: Sandhya Menon, AuDHD Developmental Psychologist, Onwards and Upwards Psychology
Sara Richardson: Hello everybody, and welcome to the next in the series of Be You Early Childhood Australia In Focus webinars. Today's webinar, Neuro-affirming practices to support children's peer relationships, is going to be an interesting one, we've had a lot of interest from people. And so my name's Sara Richardson, and joining me is Sandhya, who I'll introduce you to later. But today we're going to have a conversation about neuro-affirming practices and how we can support children's wellbeing through those practices, and also think about and explore and have conversation about positive peer relationships. So the focus is really going to support, will be the beginning of a conversation, hopefully, for you to have and will enjoy. I'm looking, really looking forward to having that conversation.
But before we go any further, I'd like to acknowledge that I'm joining you all from Kaurna Country in Adelaide, and I'd like to pay my respects to Kaurna Elders, past and present, and I would really encourage you to acknowledge the places and spaces that you're joining us from today as well and do that in whatever way feels most comfortable to you.
The other thing I also want to note is that we need to be mindful of our emotional safety as we talk about mental health. Be You's a mental health initiative and so what we'd really like you to do is think about and make a plan for how, what you'll do if we discuss anything that raises an uncomfortable feeling for you, or some thoughts or some reminders of experiences that you might have had. And remember that there's always someone you can talk to, so we've provided some support for mental health, services and lines that you can contact, so make use of those. We've also shared the links in the chat as well.
So as I said, today's webinar is our September webinar, and it's the third in our In Focus series for this year, 2026, and as some of you may have known if you've been before, this year we're offering a monthly webinar in a series of focused on relationships and mental health. We hold these In Focus webinars every second month, and we have a facilitated discussion with the guest speaker, which is what's happening today. In the other month, in the, following on, there's an In Practice, because what we do in the In Focus is have a conversation with an expert to get some content and some information and really ground people in the topic, and then following up, we have an In Practice session webinar where you can really have a look at the content that was discussed in today's webinar, and think about what that really looks like for you in your service. And we'll give some examples of that, maybe follow through a bit of a case study of what's happened in the service, and some real practical ways for you to think about how you might make changes around this topic for your service. So, keep an eye out for that. You can register for that any time soon and we'll let you know about that, but today's session is really going to be about the content and the topic and really, as I said, having a conversation about that.
So before we get started though, let's have a bit of a poll and have a think about what your current approach to neuro-affirming practices to support children's peer relationships currently looks like. If you'd like to participate in this poll, if you're joining us live, you can. If you're not, and you're watching the recording, you might want to pause now and have a bit of a conversation about where you think you're up to. But maybe consider, do you already have an approach and a strategy, in place? Are you making some progress, and you're actioning some of your plans? Maybe you're just at the first steps, and you're thinking about starting to plan, or you're really just really starting to explore the topic itself, and understand it a little bit more, and think about what that looks like, might that look like in your service. So, it'd be really interesting, and really would, you know, really like to find out, we'll ask you another poll at the end about how you're feeling.
So now we're having a look at the results, and it's this usually happens nearly in every poll. We've got a spread of people, so we have a real diversity of people here. Some people have already got some things really in place, and so that's, that's fantastic. Some, and there's others who are making a bit of progress, and they're actioning some plans, and there are other people who are really early days. And I think all of those things are really important and really valid. And so wherever you are, and whatever your starting place is, hopefully you'll find something from today's session, and think about maybe it might validate what you're already doing, or, and also it might give you some ideas, or it might give you that inspiration you need to kind of take those first steps.
So as I said I'm really, really excited to introduce you to Sandhya, who's going to join me in the conversation today about neuro-affirming practices. And so, welcome, Sandhya, thank you so much for joining us, and what I'm going to do is invite you to introduce yourself, and particularly, you know, explain why this is a really important topic for you, or why you're, you know, what that, what this topic might mean for you.
Sandhya Menon: Hi, Sara, thanks for having me. So, and hi everyone, thanks for joining us today. So, my name is Sandhya Menon. I am an Education and Developmental Psychologist.
So it's through that lens that I have supported educators and childcare spaces to adopt affirming approaches, but also, I come to you with the lens of being an autistic person myself, having raised an autistic child through these years, and have to bring a lived experience lens to this as well. Yeah, I run Onwards and Upwards Psychology, so, oh, pointing to the wrong side. So, that is, a little bit about me and where you can find me. I've written books to help people understand neurodiversity-affirming concepts, because I think this is how we get through, through all of us understanding and really embodying what neuro-affirming practice is.
Sara Richardson: Thank you so much.
Sandhya Menon: Oh, and I'm, sorry, I'm coming from the lands of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nations, and I'd like to pay my respects to Elders past and present, as well as extend that to anyone joining us here today.
Sara Richardson: Thank you, thank you so much. And just to touch on what you said, like, I think it's going to be really important, and what we want to start doing, start our conversation is
maybe, exploring some of the key terms and some of the language we're talking about, because for some people, that can be perhaps the first challenge, or the thing that might, might feel perhaps most tricky. So let's start with this question about why does understanding neurodivergence matter for supporting children's mental health and wellbeing, which is really a big concept.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, so if we start first with that definition of neurodivergence.
It is really any kind of brain-mind-body functioning that is different to the norm. And if we plan for neurodivergence, if we know that neurodivergence is one of the forms of diversity that we have in this world we start to question, I think, the house that we were trained in. I know for myself as a developmental psychologist we look at typical development and atypical development, whereas even using a word like neurodivergence means that we're looking at, questioning, what is the norm? What are differences to the, differences to the norm? And how neurodiversity-affirming practice shifts that question to, well, how can we affirm diversity? So we start with shifting that lens, right, of expecting divergence and expecting that to be embedded in the way that we view childhood development, in the way that we view and set up and welcome students into that classroom. So, when we understand that a child might be neurodivergent, that is helping us understand and give us further information, just about how do they understand and process this world? How do they socialize, right? How might they communicate? How might their nervous system work? And it gives us a small, I guess, window into what might their needs be. So, I think, I think of neurodivergence like a cultural factor. Right? When you bring that into the room, when you support them. You have your whole self seen and supported. And, you know? I remember your question, it's about wellbeing. So, you know, when we are supported, when we are seen, right, when we are looking at their needs. It means that we're walking down a path where there's less likelihood of a mismatch between a person and the environment. Which means that it's likely to result in less distress, so better wellbeing.
Sara Richardson: Hmm. That's so interesting and so important, because I think we use that language of inclusion a lot, and we talk about that, but what you've really tried to, and I think is a really important thing for us to consider, is what does that really mean for the experience of the person who we're saying we're including? And it's a, it's a mind shift for us, because I think in early childhood, too, you're right, and you're probably from your field that you come from, developmental psychology we tend to have that normal, or typical, or, you know development in mind, or, you know, way of being in mind perhaps and so, thinking about how we can not only frame our thinking and our understanding, and our doing in that way, and think about how we can think about it from a different, in a different way, helps us shift already, straight away. And that notion of belonging is so powerful, like, we, you know, that's what the
important for inclusion is that I feel who I am and how I show up fits here and is part, can be part of this in whatever way that looks, or feels, or is, yeah and important for wellbeing. Sorry, you go.
Sandhya Menon: No, that's okay. I think you have hit the nail on the head of, like, just making that little shift already in the way that we think about it. So if you want to tie that
to a model, that's called the social model of disability, where our attitudes and beliefs that we have around disability and neurodivergence is directly going to impact the amount of disability someone is experiencing. It's not going to take away someone's disability but having more accessible attitudes reduces the burden or, the impact of the disability.
Sara Richardson: Mmm. And if we're talking about language, I mean, I think it's interesting even that you've use that language of disability, and, you know, all of those kind of things that medicalisation, maybe all the, you know, the labelling and all of those that kind of thing can be really challenging, because am I using the right words? Am I, am I using it in a way that's going to be inclusive? Or, you know, is it helpful? Because sometimes it is helpful to have names and labels for things, because it helps us understand more, but it's about what we do with that, and that's the shift in our mind, I guess, or in our thinking.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, yeah. I think when we talk about disability, we talk about disability as something that's quite value-neutral, so we're not looking at disability as bad, but we're saying there might be some additional barriers here that we need to be addressing. And that's really what disability means. You experience extra barriers in this world.
Sara Richardson: Yeah. And it makes me think about that notion of equity, too, because with equity, rather than being equal, not everybody gets the same thing. People need what they need to help them be able to be, participate. And so everybody might need something slightly different, depending on what it is that they have, well, they show up to this place with.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah. That's it.
Sara Richardson: So the other part of this conversation and the series of, of In Focus webinars we're talking about is relationships, and in particular, we want to focus on peer relationships. So if we think generally about this next question, about what can positive peer relationships look like? In this early childhood context, in this, within this context that we're talking about.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, so…I'm gonna put my developmental hat on here a little bit, but when we think about first having, you know, the first, the beginning and emergence of you know, peer relationships is, I see you exist, I notice you exist, right? Like, I remember, like, working with babies, and the first time that they find their fingers. It is fascinating to be like, wow, this is amazing. So, taking on, that's the start of peer relationships, it's taking on, you exist as a separate entity outside of me. Right, so how do we learn to coexist with each other? It's, you know, can I play alongside you? And inherent in that is, how much space do you need for me to play alongside you, right? What do I want to do? So what are my needs? What is it that you want to do? Right? And if I do want to have a peer to play with, do we have a space where we can both meet our needs? Now, traditionally, we've thought of this in the lens of equality. In terms of, oh, well, it's my turn, your turn, my turn, your turn, or it has to be a give or take. But when I talk about meeting our needs, the shift that I try to make is a match in personalities and energies. Some people really enjoy taking a lead, and some people really enjoy just following. They enjoy that strong energy, right?
So it's about, I think positive peer relationships are about the match, are about understanding each other. So, I have seen in early childhood, children develop this innate sense of what someone needs, right? Like, oh, Susie's distressed, I'm gonna go get her headphones, and I can bring that over to her. And so they, they show even without, you know, overt scaffolding, they show this innate need of, I know what you need, and I can help you meet your needs. And I think, to me, that's a good sign. It is in speaking up, right? Or, I want that, no thank you. Lots of adults are still learning that one. That's not fair. So, how do I learn to meet my needs? How do I have my boundaries respected? How do I learn to have tricky conversations where what we need are different things. Right? So for example, I want the blue truck, and maybe we want the same thing, and we can't have it. I want the blue truck and you want the blue truck. But how do we express those needs? Find a way to, not meet in the middle, but find a solution, and prevent it from falling over into, judgments, right? Of, like, you're a bad person because you took my blue truck, for example. It's, you wanted the blue truck. So, this idea of keeping unconditional positive regard.
And when I think about creating positive peer relationships, I cannot overstate enough just how important educators are in creating that atmosphere of kindness and non-judgment. Because, you know, kids might be quick to jump to emotional conclusions when they are having big feelings, you know, so they might say things like, I hate him, he's the worst, and other children are listening to this. So, how educators respond are critical in developing that inner voice when we are resolving conflict. I also think about what a good interest looks like. Right, so, sometimes we praise the kid who is playing with trucks, and making the sounds, or, you know, making cool creations with the Magna-tiles, but the kid who's staring at the floor because he's watching an ant. That's not an interest that is traditionally celebrated. So how can we look at both of those things as equal? I was like, you're sharing space, both of you are watching ants. Maybe in separate corners, but you know that they have a shared interest. So you might create an activity around that. So if you find two children who have similar interests, but they're both in their own corner, finding ways to exist side by side. I notice, you notice, we're noticing a similar shared thing. I hope that answered the question.
Sara Richardson: Oh I've got so many things going around in my head at the moment. Yes, you have. It was really making me think about, like, when you said, you know, what's a good interest, and the value judgment we would place on that as an educator, because we're all going to show up with the things that we are comfortable with, too, and the way, and the things that we value, plus then the added pressures on early childhood educators to get everything, and I'm going to use, like you did, air quotes, like, everything right. Like, we have to, and so I think sometimes we come with those judgements, and it means we miss, maybe those children who might be really, I have really intense interest about something, because we haven't we haven't got, we haven't, we feel like we haven't got time or capacity, or we haven't made time for that kind of thing. And so then there are those missed opportunities to, first of all, notice, because I think that's the first part of the really important, critical thing, is to notice all the things that children are interested in, every child, not just the ones that we value, or put on the program, or got out for the day, or the things that we like. And then the other thing is then to proactively help match those interests with maybe another child. And that, that's planning for children, isn't it? Like, that's actually where we're doing our
planning, but we've got to notice it first, and not just be writing the observation because we have to, you know, tick them off for that day, and we've found one that's easy to write down. Yeah, it's interesting.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think this is something that neurodivergence pushes our boundaries on. Because when we are doing room setup we are designing with activities in mind. We are creating those boxes of the activities that children will engage in for the day. And neurodivergence pushes us to think outside of that box, right? When children aren't fitting into those boxes, what are they doing?
Sara Richardson: Yep. The other thing you said, which I found and I wrote down, because I wanted to talk to you about it, is that unconditional positive regard. And I think, again, and you talked about the important role of the educator, and so how we understand our own you know way of enacting that, or showing up like that, is really important and powerful, because it's sometimes hard to do that, I think, if we're being honest with ourselves. We might say we do, but actually are we? In every moment.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, and I often tease apart these things as to, making a value judgment about yourself. So, for example, you know, if I'm not engaging, or if I'm saying these things, I'm a bad person, and I'm not a bad person. Right? Versus a skill that we can develop. Right? And these skills are going to interact with our own capacity, our own training, you know, the house that we were trained in, and it's not a value judgment. And I think it's important to tease those two things apart, of, like, you can be a good person, but still find working with neurodivergent children tricky, because sometimes we don't have the map for them yet. Right, we're still in the process of gaining an understanding of their world, gaining an understanding of their needs, and sometimes that can press on our own not-good-enough schemas.
Sara Richardson: Yeah, that's, that's really important. And it's interesting you said that, because as I was asking that question, I was thinking it's really important for us to be kind to ourselves, which is really what you've just said, I think, is that if we don't start there, and we, like, understand that we, we're navigating this space and navigating it together, and learning about children as we go, and learning about ourselves at the same time, I think, is the, you know, if we keep continuing to show up like that and be kind to ourselves as well, we, you know, we can have that positive regard for ourselves as well as for children that we're working with, yeah.
Sandhya Menon: That's it.
Sara Richardson: And I think having a, sorry. Sorry. You go.
Sandhya Menon: I was saying that our skill development is not static, right?
Sara Richardson: Yeah.
Sandhya Menon: Just because I've got 20 years of experience behind me doesn't mean that I don't have more to learn.
Sara Richardson: Yeah. And I think that goes along with that, which is the bit I was going to say, is I think that curiosity is such a powerful, important disposition for us to have. You know, we want to foster that in children, but if we're curious, then we can be open to seeing outside the box, outside of our box, but also the box that we're kind of working in, and that'll help us find, navigate and find ways through. Yeah, so interesting. So many more things to talk about. How, let's if we think about this next question, so how do peer relationships support neurodivergent children's social-emotional learning? Because I think, really, that's what we've been, you know, we're really honing in on, and that the social-emotional development of children is really fundamental to their mental health, and it's something that happens in early childhood all the time, and it's an environment set up for that, and it should be happening right probably in not just early childhood environments, but everywhere, so what's the correlation here, I guess, between the peer relationships and supporting children's neurodivergent children's social-emotional learning and wellbeing more broadly?
Sandhya Menon: Yep. I think, so peer relationships offer a playground for social learning to happen, and in terms of the core challenges that we go through as we go through life, we are learning about our identity development. So we're going to ask questions like, who am I? And we define who am I as opposed to, okay, well, I like that, but I don't like that, you know, or this is my mum, this is my dad. And so we start to, over time, develop a much more complex idea of who am I in comparison to others. How do I differentiate myself? Who am I like? What are my values? Like, am I loved and welcomed in society? And it's important that when we're answering that question of how do I differentiate themselves, and early childhood is a ripe setting. Is it just, I'm not like the other children? I can't do things like the other children? These kind of, I guess, thoughts, mentality can set really early. And so, when we talk about things like, how do I differentiate myself, it's looking at, you know, Amy likes pears, and I like apples. Everybody can like different things, so starting to get, scripts about that.
And one thing I wanted to say is, when we're looking at peer relationships a lot of people have an idea about what good peer relationships look like. For our neurodivergent children in early childhood, sometimes it's just, I like hanging out with you. And that could be sufficient. So it's not this turn-taking, joint play that we are thought to be a good peer relationship, it's, am I comfortable coming to this classroom and this environment every single day. Do I feel valued in this environment every single day? Are there people who I like existing next to? That is a positive peer relationship. This degree of comfort that we can feel in our nervous system in a social setting. So, you know, being valued by peers could be another aspect of positive peer relationships that will, I guess, what's the word? Add to the development of positive self-esteem and identity. I am liked by my peers. So it doesn't have to be this reciprocal turn-taking, it's just, do my peers like me, or are they annoyed to see me?
Sara Richardson: Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because I was thinking about, you know, in practical terms, if a child particularly wants to sit next to, someone else in the room, for example, and chooses to be sitting next to that person and positions themselves all the time how that's experienced by that child who, that's really important, but there's maybe not any other kind of obvious interaction that you might think you should be looking for, or be back to that normal or typical kind of, you know, well, they should play with each other, or have, have an interaction that we might typically expect. Then but if that child is accepted, and the child who's being chosen as
the, as my friend, because that's what that is, then, as if they're comfortable with that too, then that should be, that's what should be happening, or that's, that's the right thing to be doing. But if we don't value that, or we don't see that, or we don't acknowledge that that's a peer relationship worth fostering, then we might not, or we might try and take it in a direction that we think it should go, which means maybe you need to talk to each other, or you need to take turns, or you need to, you know, evolve your play, or something different. Does that feel like that's on the right track, what I'm saying there?
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, yeah. I think, so I think it's okay to scaffold social interactions, but I think it's important that we don't have this end goal of what it can look like So for example, if I were encouraging peer relationships, and I know that Ahmed likes sitting next to Ben, for example, I might sit them together next to each other at the mealtime, and I might just encourage them to pass things to each other, for example, right? And that could be the start, like, that's a simple thing that's encouraging them to interact in a quite for them, a meaningful way. Yep. Right? Of learning to exchange something that's quite concrete. And it might not translate to playing outside, but that interaction there is meaningful.
Sara Richardson: Yeah. That's right. And I think you've, you've used the word scaffold a couple of times, and I think that is really important, is it's not just about letting children be in the space and doing it themselves. That role that educators play here in scaffolding and supporting is part of what we are supposed to be doing in early childhood, is supporting children's peer relationships and their social and emotional development. It's about, and that scaffolding notion of supporting children to move to the next thing that's right for them, not what we have been as our end goal, I think is what you were saying. Like, it's not what we had in mind, but what's best for them, or what's right for them.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, that's right, and I think that they show us in their own way, so if we expose through, like, modelling, through creating opportunity, we see where the child wants to go with that direction, right? But we're creating an environment that is rich for social learning.
Sara Richardson: Yeah, that's right. And back to that, because I think probably lots of people feel like that's possibly what they're doing, and maybe now, if we move into some of those questions about, you know, what neuro-affirming practices can educators draw on to support children? So, the environment's obviously one of those things, to form and sustain those positive peer relationships. So, what kinds of things do you think would help that?
Sandhya Menon: So, I think first if we look at the environment, we need to look at a culture of, you are welcome here, right? So, that is probably the biggest takeaway of helping someone feel in their body that they are welcome by greeting everybody, you know, your morning circles, happy to see you, quite overt statements. That can go a long way. We can talk about whole class understanding of diversity. And I really like I don't know if anyone knows this, but Pevan and Sarah from ABC, they have a beautiful song called Better Together. And I know when my children were taking that home and singing it, they really embodied that, like, you know, we have this classroom culture of
we're all different, and we're better together. And developing scripts, I think, is another way that we, in the environment, can contribute to that. So, thinking about. You know? Evan is still learning to do XYZ, it's okay for us to help him. Or, they need this, and for you, for example, sitting down on the mat, that meets your needs. For Evan, he needs a weighted toy to help him meet his needs. We all learn differently, so having scripts like that, where we train ourselves to introduce a positive classroom environment that normalises diversity goes a long way. In terms of practical things we can put in, I would normalise having different forms of communication. So, for example, mat time, normalising, you know, do you want to have like, put up your hand, or do you want to act your answer out, or are you giving me a picture? When you are asking questions, do you have a lanyard to show a visual of, like, wait, not just giving mouth words? So, normalising different forms of communication, both in the communication that we give out but also in the communication that we receive from the children. Because sometimes we have prioritised mouth words, like our speech, so much that children are already giving us messages with their bodies. That rich non-verbal communication where they're saying, I don't like it, my body's feeling uncomfortable because I'm moving, you know, how do we prioritize that communication too? So, you could say something like, I notice our bodies are getting wiggly, let's take a dance break. So they don't need to be advocating, they don't need to be giving a picture, but just leaning into diversity of communication.
Another I guess, trying to be practical, understand the impact of a rich sensory environment. So children are going to come in with maybe sensory-avoidant tendencies, where I know from myself, walking into an early childhood classroom feels chaotic.
Sara Richardson: Yeah, they're busy.
Sandhya Menon: They are. And it's not just, it's not just from the noise. It is from the smell.
Of, you know, what the chef is making. It's from the smell of detergent. I can smell all the, like, chemicals in the detergent. It's from the motion of every, like, person moving around. It's from the visuals on the board. So, it is quite multi-layered. And I invite people to understand the sensory environment. That is present, and be aware of it, because sometimes when you're in it, you just habituate to it.
Sara Richardson: Hmm.
Sandhya Menon: Right? You don't even notice the smells anymore. Whereas autistic people, we know that we actually don't habituate to sensory stimuli. So we don't get used to it. And it's just in our face every single time. And that's why it's challenging every single time. So building an environment that has, that knows what the sensory environment is like, and has space for accommodations. So, for example, if it's a strong chemical, can we use unscented, cleaning fluids? Can we have headphones that are just free for everyone to use. You know, do we have, not, not fidgets, I wouldn't advocate for this for, like, small kids, but, like, cushions, you know, the sequin cushions, for those who are sensory seekers, so having people who need a lot of sensory input as well, not just the sensory-sensitive ones. And I think the last thing… Would be kind of circling back to the environment is having a really good educator who you can talk and debrief to, and who you can trust is not just going to reinforce your
perspective, right, on, like, why that child is hard. But I actually show you a mirror going, could we try something else here? To keep us connected to this attitude of curiosity and unconditional positive regard. I think that goes a long way.
Sara Richardson: Wow, you've given us lots to think about there. I'm going to come back to a couple of things. I think, I mean, you and you came back round to the environment, and I think what you were talking about initially was the culture. And so, because often we think about environment as the physical space, and that's important too, and I know you talked about the sensory aspect of that, but I think we, if we invested as much time and thinking and planning in our non-physical environment, so whatever you want to call that, the physical, the human, or the cultural, or the, whatever that that word is that you want to call that, and we plan for that, we could, we could probably have good outcomes as well, because when we plan for our spaces, and how we set them up, and how we, you know, how we fill them, and what they're used for, we can have, you know, really great outcomes. If we, if we also thought about the other the cultural environment, too, and plan for that in the same kind of way, then we could have you know, that would be fantastic, I think.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, that would be nice. I'm thinking about, I guess now, going back and analysing, you know, sometimes when you walk into a space, and I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but your whole body just relaxes because it's something in the layout, you haven't even spoken to someone yet, but you're getting that feel of this space has been thought out, this space is well considered, and it makes me feel calm. Yeah. So, you know, start noticing environments that you walk into, how your own body responds. And what you can bring into the environment. That creates that culture before they've even met you.
Sara Richardson: Yeah. And a couple of times you've mentioned this, and it was really interesting, because when you said, you know, we get habituated to something, so I think what you mean is we show up every day, and we see this and we just don't see it anymore, because we've just been walking in every single day, and we've got so many other things on our mind, and we, we just go and start doing the work, because that's what happens. And I was thinking when you were talking, like, we don't just need to we need do a stocktake every now and again. And not just with fresh eyes, but I think what, you know, what you really said is all the senses. So, fresh eyes, fresh ears, fresh nose, but really thinking about what does my body feel like? And you've talked about that a couple of times for noticing that in children, but also noticing that in ourselves. And all of this tends to come back to us, doesn't it? Look, if we, if we can start to really recognise and understand it ourselves. That will help us be able to be different. But I really liked what you said, then, about having a person that you can talk to, and I think if services could think about what, who that might be and how that looks, like, is it just you talk to the person in the room next to you, because they might have the same,
if they think the same as you, because sometimes we want to find the person who says, yes, yes, yes, and because then we can just get on with it. But maybe proactively looking for someone who might have a different perspective, or might help us think differently, or might ask us some questions that we hadn't thought of, or see and feel the world differently will help us understand things differently, too.
Sandhya Menon: Yep. I'm just gonna share something that maybe people will resonate with. I used, when I was, you know, called baby psychologist, and I was learning, and I had teachers who I would learn from. I used to say, I surround myself with one who would make me, and one who would break me. One who would make me into, like, just make me feel good that I know what I'm doing. And the one who would break me is, like, give me feedback for growth, and I know that's harsh, and, like, I don't want to, but it's hard for me to hear. But that helps me keep growing. Ideally, they would be present in the same person, but for me, I needed two people.
Sara Richardson: Yeah, that's really, it's really interesting, isn't it? And I think we can individually look for that ourselves, but if early Learning Services could think about how that might look, because you could even, like, across rooms or those kind of things, because maybe you could ask someone from another room to come and give you another perspective, or, because they would see things differently from a slightly different lens, but really thinking about who those people are to help you. I'm not sure if I want to be broken, because sometimes that might, but I think if I take your point, like, I think it's really helpful to really… because otherwise we do just we can get complacent, or we can get, and our work is really intense, and it's emotionally heavy, and physically, and so and, you know, there's a lot of things coming at us all the time, and so making sure we take care of ourselves, and this is one of the things that in Be You we talk about a lot, that educator wellbeing’s really important, that you're, that you feel as safe and as, supported as you can. But part of that is also helping us to continue to grow, and to find new ways. And I was thinking about this as we were, you know, in preparation for this session people, most people who work in early learning in the sector really have good intent. You know, they really want things to be right for all the children that come into their spaces, and they really want that to be true. And sometimes we need that support and help for us to be able to do that, and sometimes that comes from the service, but we might need to search for that ourselves if we're not looking for it, or if we haven't seen it. I've just taken this on a tangent that you weren't going to talk about that.
Sandhya Menon: I love that. This is the real embodied kind of learning, as to what does it mean to be an educator in this day and age?
Sara Richardson: Yeah, and I think in particular around children, who, who, and I think you used the language before where we might find them tricky, or we might not know what to do, and it impacts on our confidence, maybe, or our ability to know what to do next. And that's why having conversations with you is so important, with people like you. And then continuing those conversations and finding about how we continue to have those conversations with each other. So that we acknowledge when it's tricky for us, and acknowledge when it's hard, and validate that, but then also find ways to navigate through, because that's important for us, but it's really important for children. For all of the children we work with, yeah. So if we, I'll pause, because I'm talking a lot.
Sandhya Menon: That’s alright.
Sara Richardson: Is there anything else you would like to add to that notion of, you know, what educators can draw on to support all children to form relationships?
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, let me think, I think, something that maybe we didn't speak about enough is conflict management. What happens when a situation arises where you know, someone is experiencing distress and you know, I guess I call them the influencers in the room. The popular kids, the well-liked kids, have an opinion that then goes through classroom culture. Right? And it forms I guess an opinion about the child who's experiencing distress and I think it's important for us to bring that into the way that we speak about it. So I talk to the children about our energy. Most kids are familiar with 0%, 100%, 50%, like, halfway from maybe having played an iPad before. But just go, oh, he's at 0%. He's finding it really hard right now. You've got 50%, you know? Lucky you, you've got enough capacity to regulate your emotions. He's at 0%, we can help him by giving him some space to help him recharge. So, finding ways that we don't let those little things become concrete and sink into classroom culture, because they can destroy that quite quickly.
Sara Richardson: Mmm. Yeah, that's really important. It goes back to that script, doesn't it?
And the script we say and that we've got prepared and ready to go, because when you were talking about that before, I was thinking, you know, I've heard people in early learning services, and probably done it myself, oh, we're all friends here, or, you know, those kind of things, and that because that's our scripts that we learnt or heard, and it's having a broader range of scripts, because actually, what is that? When we're saying we're all friends here, what are we actually saying? Or we don't do that here. Like, you know, some of those kind of things that I'm sure we use, because they are the scripts that we've got, but I think what you're really encouraging us to do is think about what other scripts could we develop and practice. Because I think that's part of it, is having that right there, ready to go. When you are in those moments that are trickier, and that you've got something that's really more helpful to say, perhaps, for all children, yeah.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, yeah. And even this idea of we're all friends here, I'm wondering, I'm wondering how true that feels?
Sara Richardson: Yeah.
Sandhya Menon: For some of the kids, right? They're just like, no, I really don't like that person. You know, so that's not true. And I think when we serve kids' scripts and frame them as truths that they know are untruths, they start to not quite rely on our judgement. So, this might be the autistic side of me, that I am brutally honest with the children in saying you might not be friends, but we all have to respect each other as classmates. Right, so it comes back to that we learn to exist alongside each other, right? Basic dignity to everyone in this classroom. And yeah, you can choose your friends, right? But we learn how to get along. And what does getting along look like?
Sara Richardson: Yeah, what does that even mean? Yeah, that's right, yeah. And we have to understand that ourselves, understand that ourselves, and have those conversations with each other, so we can have so we can perhaps form those scripts, but also then have those conversations with children. The other thing that I wanted to ask you about, and we've probably got a couple of minutes, one more question. I was interested when you were talking about, you know, that notion of coming into the room and having those options for maybe some headphones to put on, and I, like, I heard myself say, or other people, colleagues I've worked with, yeah, but what if everybody
wants to put them on? And I think, you know, I wonder what you would say about that, because it makes me think, you know, that often we get worried that if we start something, that every, you know, everyone's going to jump on the bandwagon and, you know, that kind of thing.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah, I'd say that, for example, using a tool like headphones is an additional step. Most children don't want to take the additional step. I'd say that people who don't use headphones oh, no, people who don't need headphones, when they use headphones. they might not like that sensory environment. They might go, oh, I want to actually talk to my friends, and I can't hear you right now. So it might clash with their own needs when they just take on this tool. And I think bearing in mind that when we are looking at early childhood, we are actually looking at a mixture of those who have diagnosed, recognisable needs and those who actually don't have identified needs yet, who might still benefit from these accommodations. So if there is a limited amount and someone else is using it, going, you know, can we set some rules around it? Like, can I check in how much more longer do you need it? I have someone else who needs it. Yeah. Just checking in for that.
And I think the way that we introduce the availability of that is helpful. So, is it just having it in the corner, having it on standby, the kids who need it go get it? Is it something that's introduced through classroom rules, so these are available, feel free to try them on, and then see if that suits your needs.
Sara Richardson: Yeah, I think that's right, because otherwise, if you just say, oh, they're only for, or they're just for, then those, you know, there might be children who are curious about, well, what happens if I put them on, and I don't know, and they try them out, and they're like, well, no, that doesn't work for me, because I need to be able to hear everything, and be, you know, so but if you, but if you, depends what rules you put around them. It's tricky, isn't it? Because then they're there only for that person, then you're making the difference something that doesn't need to be there, perhaps.
Sandhya Menon: Yep.
Sara Richardson: So, you're right, that planning around, this is all getting back to the planning, and I think probably what we've talked about, all of these things require some intentionality, and some conversations with each other, and some planning. You can't just rock up and start doing these things in any kind of way. You actually need to plan for this, and talk to each other, and get shared understandings about it with each other as well, probably.
Sandhya Menon: Yeah. Something that I thought about, actually, is what we did when we were at kinder is we brought our own headphones. So, we added it to, just the bucket of black headphones, but ours was bright yellow. So, it could be, you know, the bright yellow ones, that's this person's, the black ones are free for everyone to use.
Sara Richardson: Yep.
Sandhya Menon: Alright, so it's just making sure that the person who needs it always has access.
Sara Richardson: Yeah.
Sandhya Menon: But normalising that support as well.
Sara Richardson: Yeah. So interesting. We're just about ready to move on to the next thing that's gone so quickly, and I knew it would. Is there anything else that you would like to add before we move on to this? And maybe while we can put the poll up, actually, and people can, respond to that, if there's anything else you wanted to add. I'll introduce the poll, and then I'll come back to you. So, what we're asking everybody to do today is, think about their next steps. So, we've heard some really interesting things from you, Sandhya, and we've had some conversations and, gone down a bit of a pathway of exploring some, some possibilities, and maybe some things worth thinking about. So we're really interested in people's next steps, so they might take their ideas back to their service and discuss them with colleagues, they might start planning for improvements, and like I said, I think planning's really important. I think thinking about, Quality Improvement Plan, you know, how there might be opportunities to map it in there, and maybe also connecting with a Be You consultant to help you think about and navigate that. That's one of the opportunities that Be You provides for people. So I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts about that, but, you know, I'll come back to you, because I'll ask you a question. Is there anything else you would like to add?
Sandhya Menon: I think just sometimes when we end and we talk about all these things that we have to do, this can bring up a sense of anxiety for educators to go, well, it's my job to prepare them for the future, right? So we start to catastrophise about, you know, well, I'm not getting them ready for school, and I would suggest noticing if that comes up, and just going,
childhood development is just about what's the next right step. It's not about pushing them five steps before they're ready to walk the one step. Same with early childhood development. They walk when they're ready. They will take that next step when they're ready, and we are just trying to provide that safe social and emotional learning zone for them to, for us to meet them at each step of the way.
Sara Richardson: Yeah, and that's a really important and probably the right thing to finish on, I think, is that, you know, and that happens for us in early childhood, doesn't it? We can't see the future, and we don't know what happens next, and we do worry that we haven't done enough, or we haven't been there, you know, done the right things, and all of those kind of things, but you're right, they're really being mindful that being in the moment, and that, right now, is what needs to happen for that child right now, and that will support what next. Anyway, thank you very much. I am also going to give you a bit of an opportunity to talk about some of the resources and support materials that you've got, and that you've produced. So, I'm going to pop off screen and, let you have a conversation with everybody about some of these things, and I'll come back in a sec.
Sandhya Menon: Great, thanks. Yeah, so, like I said, I am a psychologist who's going back to working with clinic, but I've written a few books just to help educators and families understand some core concepts that used to exist just in psychology, but I want it to be more accessible.
So, The Brain Forest is a good book for teaching children about different brains that basically says, look, every brain is good. But every brain might need something different, and so it gives us ideas about what can we do to be more inclusive? Because
maybe I'm just gonna wait while you gather your things, because you're messy. Or, I see that person being left out, maybe I can include them. So, it's a really nice book to start ideas about inclusion. The Rainbow Brain talks about what it's like to be both autistic and ADHD. My Body's Power Pack is the third one, and that's the one that contains ideas about being at, like, 10%, 50%, 0%, and the fight-flight that happens at 0%. It's got these really cute, like, dremlins which come and take away your charge when things go wrong. And it's a different way that we can talk about emotional regulation through the lens of energy regulation. And my last one, and this is going to be really great for anyone who's navigating that transition from kinder to school. It's called When New Feels Weird. And it takes someone through, how new can feel a little bit scary and anxiety-provoking, and the strategies that we can learn along the way. To help us manage in a way that's really kind and compassionate to the experience of the child. I also do parent courses for understanding autism or ADHD. If anyone is interested, I think my websites in the chat, so feel free to just browse through that. But aside from that, I put lots of resources up on social media, so feel free to connect with me. If you connect with me on Instagram, you just automatically get a link to resources, worksheets that you can download, all for free. So that's worth looking into as well. But thank you so much for joining me and learning from me today.
Sara Richardson: And thank you so much for coming and for sharing not only those resources, but also having that conversation with me and responding to my questions that might have been left field, but also, you know, we kind of wound our way around talking about some of the things, and it's really important to continue to have those conversations, so we really, really appreciate your input, and I'm sure people will find those resources, really really helpful, and follow Sandhya on Insta, it's fantastic, and it's a wild ride, like. And so, as we finish up, we've got a couple of minutes left we really, value everybody's feedback. So, a, feedback surveys popped up, so if you could fill that in before you leave, that would be, would be fantastic. And I also want to, just remind you, at the beginning, I mentioned that this is a series of webinars that we're having, across the year, and so our next webinar is the In Practice, where we will revisit some of these concepts and some of the conversations we've had, and really thinking about what kind of change you can make in your service and in your setting and how you can start drawing on some of these neuro-affirming practices, in a planned, intentional way, as well. So, the next webinar is next month as I said, we have them monthly on a Thursday, so please register for that, if you can. And we look forward to having you there. And remember, you can, also register and get the recording as well. You also might be interested in engaging with Be You a bit more broadly, so you might want to register for Be You as well, if you like. So, as we come to the end of the webinar, once again, really, really very grateful, and thank you for joining us today, Sandhya. And I also want to thank everybody for joining online as well. Who, the people who've, joined us live today, but also if you're watching the recording, we hope you have had an opportunity to perhaps share this with your team, and maybe stop and have conversations along the way, or engage with it in any other way. So, you'll get some, reminders to complete the survey, so give us some feedback, and you'll also, get some comms after this with your link to the recording and that kind of thing as well. So, thank you so much, and we'll see you again at the next webinar. Thank you, bye.